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Mischief Makers Episode 15: Lydia Fraser

[Upbeat music plays]Host: Welcome to Mischief Makers, your one stop shop for all things Mischief. Join your host Dave Hearn, as he finds out what makes Mischief... well, Mischief!Charlie Russell: Hello and welcome to another episode of Mischief Makers. I'm Charlie Russell and today I have the honour and pleasure of interviewing the incredibly talented actor and wonderful human: Lydia Fraser. Hello Lydia!Lydia Fraser: Hello Charlie, how are you?CR: Yeah, I'm doing very well thank you. I'm so excited to interview you - this is going to be great!LF: Aw, I'm really excited too! Thank you for having me.CR: Well it's our pleasure! So for those listeners who don't know, this is a podcast for people to get to know the members of Mischief and just generally find out interesting things about interesting people. This week we're doing things a little differently - so I want to find more about... I want to find out more about Lydia, her life and her career. But as well as this, Lydia is going to talk to us about the Black Lives Matter movement.Mischief benefits from white privilege and we wanted to use our platform to amplify Lydia's voice - if that was something she wanted. We acknowledge it's not Lydia's job to teach people about systemic racism - it's our responsibility to learn and listen. But Lydia has still kindly agreed to come on and share her experiences and understanding with us, and we are very grateful for that. So Lydia, thank you for being here with us. How are you today?LF: I'm very well thank you, I'm very well. And I really appreciate you coming towards me and giving me this platform to be able to speak. Obviously not that I speak for everyone [laughs] but I really appreciate this opportunity, thank you.CR: Well it's our honour and our privilege. We usually start with a little Getting to Know You section in this little podcast thing. And so for those people who don't know, Lydia was in the second cast of The Comedy About a Bank Robbery in the West End, where I was lucky enough to share a stage with you for a short time. Because even though I wasn't technically in your cast, there was a period of time where you needed some emergency cover - so it was around Christmas, wasn't it?LF: Yeah!CR: I got to come on and we did shows together and rehearsals together. It was so fun!LF: So much fun, it was so, so, so much fun. And it was still kind of like fresh and new for me as well, because I was still learning so many other parts because I was Understudy on it as well. So I was learning from you as well as from Tania and Paula and Holly.[Both laugh]LF: It was just madness! And obvious because Christmas in theatre land is... incredibly busy!CR: Oh yeah!LF: So all of that on top of it. So it was so much fun - it was crazy, but it was so much fun.CR: It really was, wasn't it? And also I'd love to add how brilliant you are to work with and also to watch. You're so good, you're completely captivating on stage.LF: Aw thank you!CR: It's true, it's true! And it makes sense because after Bank Robbery, amongst other things you are in the cast of Hamilton on the West End. Is that right?LF: Yeah I am - I'm standby, so I cover Angelica, Eliza and Peggy/Maria in Hamilton.CR: Wow!LF: And it's been absolutely amazing, absolutely amazing.CR: Yeah? Was it kind of scary when you... were you just like, "Oh my God - I'm doing Hamilton!"[Both laugh]LF: That's exactly how I felt, that's exactly how I felt! And because the audition process was so thorough as well and there was so much material to learn, because they want to see that you can play all the parts. And it's vocally very challenging - the three sisters are very, very different. And if you've seen the show, it's basically the whole thing is sung all the way through. So it was a lot to learn and then obviously into rehearsals it was getting to know all of those tracks and also getting to know everyone else who also had to know other tracks that you were going to be performing with. So it was never a dull moment!CR: I love Hamilton and I quite frequently listen to the soundtrack the recordings - do you have a favourite [character] to play? Because Eliza is the 'main' role but I really love Angelica. Do you have a favourite?LF: Yeah, Angelica's definitely my favourite! Definitely my favourite! Yes, I love her - I just... to be honest, getting to perform "Satisfied" is... it's just ahh... it's basically like a soliloquy, it's such an actor's dream of a song to do. Because you get to rap in it (not that I've ever rapped before!) I also question why I'm doing it![Both laugh]LF: You're like, "I don't rap! This is completely alien to me!" But somehow... I slipped through the cracks, I guess! [Laughs] But it's such an amazing role to play and she's got totally different masks as a character. And they just change throughout and she's so torn between her loyalty with her sister and the love she has for Hamilton. But yeah, stay tuned if you've not seen it! [Laughs]CR: I am going to let you into a little secret, Lydia: I (as a total nerd) have spent enough time learning it and I can also do the rap (not very well!)[Both laugh]LF: So proud, so proud!CR: I will never make it public, but one day I may do it for you if you get me drunk enough.LF: I'm going to hold you to that 100%![CF laughs]LF: Because I need to see it - I need it in my life!CR: So tell me, let's hear more about you - where did you grow up and how actually how did you get into acting and musical theatre?LF: Well I was born in Birmingham and I lived there for 12 years, so I moved from Birmingham to Surrey when I was 13. And me and my sister have just always been into the arts - my Dad plays piano and trumpet and... also the didgeridoo which is really random?![Both laugh]LF: He collects musical instruments! [Laughs] So we've always been quite an arty household and we always sung as kids as well. And my Mum sent us to the Helen O'Grady Drama Academy every Saturday, so we went to this little theatre school for kids. So that's really kind of how we got into it, it was very much a me and my sister thing - there was a shared passion. And then when we moved to Surrey, obviously it was very, very different as well and it's a different stage of life because you're going into Year 8 and you're a bit pre-teen and getting a bit awkward and finding yourself. It took me a while to gain confidence and then start doing like school shows and things like that and finding another like Saturday school I could go to, which is great because my parents were always really, really supportive of that and always very keen to keep that alive.CR: Oh that's lovely. Is your sister an actor as well?LF: Yeah, she's gone down a different route. So she went to uni and she studied Film Studies instead, but the love for it never died with her! And she's done more sort of entertainments performance, so she's worked for like the London Dungeons and Merlin Entertainments, things like that.CR: Oh wow!LF: And last year... was it last year? Yeah, last year she played Deloris in Sister Act in the Isle of Wight, and it was like the first time in a long time that she's played such a big role in a musical. And she absolutely smashed it, she was phenomenal, absolutley phenomenal.CR: That's amazing, how lovely. So I suppose we're also here to talk about your experience as a Black woman.LF: Yeah.CR: Did you... it's a really sort of naive question of me, but did you encounter racism growing up? At school or later on in your training? And if so, has it evolved or changed since then?LF: 100%. I would definitely say that racism (especially in Britain as well) has evolved in different ways, because it's so much more insidious. We do get a lot of aggression and hurt, but it's done in a very different way. It's systemic.When I was growing up... I've said this outloud on Twitter as well. [Laughs] I run my mouth on Twitter! But when I was... I couldn't have been no more than five, I was tiny, I was tiny. And I was playing in a playground and I remember my sister was in a buggy (that's how young I was). And I was playing with this little girl as kids do, as kids do - you just randomly make friends with anyone, don't you? And her brother came older - who was older than both of us - and he said, "You can't play with us. Go away. You can't play with us because you're Black." And I remember more than anything just like the feeling of absolute shame. Obviously being so young as well, you don't really understand how that feels at that young age - because kids have no shame! They're happy to like walk around and do anything and just go, "Look at me, I'm doing a cartwheel!" "Great, good for you!" But it was the most poignant feeling of racism for me. And it was almost like I'd just been found... just utterly embarrassed, I was mortified. And I was so confused by it. And I remember going up to my Mum and saying, "Oh this boy said this to me". And obviously my Mum was absolutely raging - she was seething, she was like, "Right. We're going, we're going home." She took my hand and I remember thinking, "Okay, so this is really bad because this has upset Mum. I'm really confused, so now Mum's really upset. Have I done something wrong? Is it my fault? Is it because... oh right, so my skin is different. I know that obviously, I'm brown - this person's white. Oh, so I'm the bad person? I'm the problem here."And this is where systemic racism comes into play. It is... it's something... being treated differently because of the colour of your skin will affect you on so many emotional and traumatic mental levels. And for me, that was one of them most poignant and earliest experiences of racism I've ever had. Granted, it has changed a lot now. I also need to state, I am a mixed-race woman. My Mum is white British - she also has really curly ginger hair and freckles so growing up as a kid, so many people were like, "That's not your Mum!" I was like, "I can guarantee you she is! I've got the birth certificate!" But that was a micro-aggression in itself. My Dad is Black Jamaican. I have a privilege myself as a person who is of mixed heritage, because I am half white, I am lighted skinned. And the micro-aggressions I get now are... you know, the fact that my hair is afro-y, people get confused because they're like, "Oh well, you don't really look that Black. But I suppose yeah, your lips are quite big, your hair's quite big." So you get these different sort of... I don't know, people try and put you in a box and try and suss out where you are racially or try and put you on a scale of how Black or how white you are. And that in itself can be... I don't know, quite degrading I guess rather than... seeing me as a person! [Laughs]CR: Well exactly. I mean it's... I can't imagine actually. I laughed when you said somebody says to you because of your ginger Mum, "That's not your Mum!" But then it shocked me because I thought, "Oh actually as a child, to experience somebody telling them that their mother isn't their Mum..."LF: Yeah.CR: That they're not connected to their Mum, must have such psychological ramificationsLF: Oh God, yeah. Because as a kid, obviously your brain is a sponge and you hear it enough times, you start to question. You go, "Is she my Mum? I'm pretty certain she is but... maybe they're right?" Because we look so different, me and my Mum - well we do and we don't, because you can see in our facial expressions and we have so many quirks that are so similar and we speak very similarly as well. But she is a white woman, she is very, very pale, very freckly, she's got Irish heritage as well. So we do look so, so different. But then again, you could say me and my Dad look so different - he is dark-skinned and I'm not, I'm not.CR: But then is that the sort of... that's the white normalisation isn't it?LF: Yeah, very much so!CR: Because what I'm learning about is that we go, white people are like, "If you're Black, you're sort of all in that box. But there's lots of difference between white people!" But we're like, "But you're Black, so you're just in that one box".LF: Yeah, so much. I remember saying to my Mum, "It's funny, because people do call me Black or I get put up for Black roles in theatre or TV, whatever". And I was like, "It's so funny they don't see that I'm definitely mixed. I'm definitely both, I'm Black and I'm white." And my Mum used to always say to me, "Lydia, they don't see that. They just see that you're Black." Which is so interesting...CR: Yeah, did your... no go on.LF: It's a funny thing because it's almost seen as an... I don't know, there's a confusion a bit in a way of... when it comes to being mixed as well, there's this sort of... when it comes to upbringing sort of.. I don't know how to say it, how torn you feel between your identity and where society wants to put you as the identity they think you are. Especially when that comes into theatre as well.CR: Yeah. I was going to ask you about your multi-racial heritage in fact, so you've sort of talked about it first. And I was wondering yeah, how you identified and isn't that interesting because I have to ask that question. Whereas as a white person, nobody's like, "Do you identify as white?"LF: [Laughs] Yeah.CR: Because white is so 'normal' that you don't have to identify as it.LF: Yeah.CR: Whereas I'm asking you the question how you identify. And I realise now the sort of perverse nature of asking you that question.LF: No well... I wouldn't say perverse, but yeah - I guess so. And it's so funny, even when you go to like the doctors and you fill out one of those forms that's like "Nationality: tick the box". And I'm always like, "Okay, right - where is it? Lower down, there it is - mixed heritage. "Which one is it?" Okay, Black Jamaican, white British - done! Tick that box!" [Laughs] But yeah it is funny, isn't it? Because when I was growing up, I had a real... coming to terms with identity is so tricky for anybody anyway when you're going through puberty. Puberty sucks, it's awful - don't make me do it every again![Both laugh]LF: I'd rather opt out, don't want to do that! But growing up, I was really lucky as a little kid because my Mum made sure that we had books that had Black or mixed characters in it. So having that growing up was so enriching to see representation and see, "Oh wow - these kids look like me, amazing!" But growing up, seeing Disney films and being obsessed with Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty, I was that kid (and I know I'm not the only girl who used to do this) - that used to put a tea-towel on their head to imagine that they had long hair. Because it was so coveted, it was so desirable to be like, "Oh, I've got this long, straight, white hair!" It was so desired and that then was sort of channeled into my teenage years and then the discovery of ghd straighteners happened and that was the thing to have for your Christmas present, that was on everyone's list. And I suppose because I was seeing so many other Black and mixed girls with weaves or wigs or straightened hair using relaxers, I was like, "Great, brilliant - so I can fit in this way". And I suppose it took me a while, it took me until drama school to make the choice - it's a personal choice as well - it was my own personal choice to go, "Actually, I don't want to straighten my hair any more. I'm going to do the big chop - chop off all the debris, the things I don't need right now! This dead hair! And just embrace the fact that I've got biracial hair that is very, very afro-y and coily." And I suppose... at the time, I didn't really think about it - but I suppose it is quite a political thing to do I guess? [Laughs] To embrace your hair.

CR: Yeah.LF: And I do get a lot of comments on it, I do get asked if it's real. And you know, there is a fascination about it and I suppose that fascination comes from the fact that it's only just becoming more visible. And... I suppose in a way fashionable? (Dare I say it?) But yeah, hair was a big thing - hair has been a big part of my mixed identity, my mixed Black identity in particular.CR: Yeah and I think you're right, definitely right in saying that it is political. Because I think any celebration of what's naturally you that is conventionally described as "not pretty" or "not good" or "not normal" is sort of an act of political activism.LF: Yeah.CR: Because you're celebrating something you absolutely should celebrate and sort of flying in the face of that white, patriarchal, 'normal' society.LF: Absolutely.CR: So you mentioned drama school - so did you find at drama school as a place that you... you talked about starting to embrace that, your natural Black hair then. Was that because of a really great environment where you were starting to celebrate the aspects of yourself that you previously hadn't? Or was it actually as a reaction to something? How was your experience of drama school basically?LF: I'm not really sure... drama school was a bit of a funny one. I went to GSA which is in Guildford which is a predominantly white area anyway and very middle-class. There weren't many Black actors on my course - I did the Acting course, there were probably about five of us. It was a huge course as well, there were a lot of us - a good 30 plus.CR: And there was five?LF: Yeah... yeah. And there was one other mixed woman; the rest were Black guys. And that's myself included. So that was interesting to see. I do struggle when I think about certain things at drama school, because I have such love and fondness for it because I learned so much and it allowed me to discover so much of what I do in my career and why I do love it. However, I do feel that it did hinder in certain parts of me - and I'm saying that overall because I think that there are many other people who probably feel that way, you know regardless of race. Because it is quite hard going to drama school. There's a sort of notion of breaking you down and lifting you back up to discover who you are... which overall is in aid to make you stronger and prepared for the industry and all of that.But I do want to speak out about a certain thing that happened at drama school. And it wasn't just GSA, there were other drama schools that are involved that did this... this 'day out', I guess. So we were told, "Oh all the people of colour within the year group on the acting course, you're going to go to the National Theatre and you're going to do a day out that is specifically tailored to you as Black actors". So obviously, we were like, "Yes! Come on, let's go then. Brilliant, let's go!" And we turned up, went to the National - obviously you're very impressionable, you're very young, all your dreams are there! We were all warming up together, there are other drama schools there as well. And then we go into Lyttelton Theatre and we sit in the auditorium and we're basically told, "You need to learn how to speak properly. You need to know how to come across in an audition room, because people are going to judge you straight away and assume you're from the ghetto, assume you're from the streets." And obviously when you're that young...CR: Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you - but it just broke up on my end and I don't want to lose what you just said. It might have been perfectly audible for everybody else, but I lost you just after "They told you need to know how to speak properly and present yourself in an audition"?LF: Oh yeah. Yes, "Some people will assume, casting directors may assume that you are from the ghetto or that you are from the streets and that you are a certain type of way". A racial stereotype basically. So it was like, "Right, you can get up and do your speeches - but I'm going to help you speak through it so that it's palatable and basically 'white posh', so to speak". And we did it anyway, all of us did - we got up and we did it. But when we travelled back to Guildford - the group of us that were there of these non-white actors - we all sat there and were like, "This feels shit. This feels horrible. I feel like we've just been told off. I don't feel like I've learned anything, I feel like I've been prepped in advance to be told that things are going to be so much harder for me because people aren't going to take you seriously as a Black actor." And I suppose unfortunately, it's true. It shouldn't be, it shouldn't be this way at all - but the repercussions and emotionally how that felt after that day, I was not happy about it basically.CR: Yeah... I think I can understand that.LF: Yeah! [Laughs]CR: I'm pretty shocked... I think what's interesting is you're right, talking about a challenge you might have to face wrongly but that you might have to face because you're Black is maybe true. And therefore like is that... maybe that's okay to talk about, but then it sounds like the way of dealing with that came from really the wrong angle.LF: Yeah.CR: So you've got to change for somebody else, rather than we need to change the system?LF: And it is so funny because it's so ironic because so much of drama school was kind of... I don't want to use the term 'whitewashing', but you were made to be palatable and expand on your castability I guess. And then it's so funny when you come out of drama school, you get all these submissions for BAME casting, and a lot of the time, countless times I've been asked, "Can you make it a bit more sassy? Can you make her a bit more like this?" It's like, I know what you're saying! By saying "sassy"! Which is so difficult because you end up being confused by all these different masks that you have to put on as to who you are or what they're wanting to be represented as an actual character. But yeah, that's my struggle with it and the industry.CR: Yeah and the bit that... I obviously can have no understanding of what that must feel like. But I also know what it's like to be an actor wanting the gig.LF: Absolutely, absolutely.CR: We all just want the gig and we want to get in to drama school then we want the job, because even if it's not the best job in the world - it might lead to another one and you might get to work with different people.LF: Yeah.CR: And when you don't have a job, you don't really feel in the position to turn around and say, "F you! You don't get to treat me like this!"LF: Of course not, of course not!CR: So you're not in a position of power to be able to kind of speak up without worrying about the repercussions of that. That's such a huge pressure.LF: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very much so. [Laughs]CR: Right. Okay... okay so, you mentioned terms in that, when you were just talking then. BME, BAME and people of colour, non-white. There's a huge really, really brilliant discussion at the moment that I think is reaching people that it hadn't reached before about words, language to describe people and to label people. And rather than me talk about it, I was wondering if you could talk about how you feel about the terms BAME, BME. And I know that you don't speak for everyone, but I'd love to hear how you feel about those terms.LF: Yeah, so... the thing I have with BAME and I'm just going to say this first before I embark upon... obviously, this is my own opinion of how I feel about that term. There's a struggle between intention and impact. And I know this sounds hugely generalised [laughs] but most of the time, I do believe that people have really good intentions and want to do the right thing. We're very... especially nowadays, we're trying to be so self-aware of doing the right thing and coming across well. But that doesn't necessarily mean the impact is right. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the impact on other people is going to be a positive one. And I feel that's where I sit with the term BAME. The intention is right, that they want to be inclusive of everybody who is non-white, however, it is slightly generalising which does make you feel a little bit put to the side, like a bit of an after-thought. It also kind of takes the power away from specifically saying Black or specifically saying indigenous or specifically saying mixed heritage or biracial, which are standalone beautiful, wonderful things to be and have every right to represented and celebrated as Black, as indigenous, as mixed.It also kind of links to... I was having a really intense couple of conversations with my Mum actually. And I know that my Mum's really hurting at the moment with everything that's been going on, because she feels that she's really discovering her own white privilege. And that as a woman who has brought up two brown women is really painful for her, to realise that she's not seen things and that she's not been able to protect us (as any mother would probably feel in a lot of different ways). All mothers want to protect their children and don't want them to hurt - but I suppose it's the realisation coming in late... [laughs] a bit late to the party! It's really hard for her. But my Mum used to always say things like, "But I don't see colour - I love you for who you are as a person". Which is good intention, which is coming from a place of love, absolute golden, light of love. She's an angel, she's wonderful. However, saying that you only see colour actually diminishes Black struggle.CR: Yeah, yeah.LF: It takes away and silences the history and the pain that has been endured for centuries. And it takes away the fact that colour is a beautiful, wonderful thing and it holds of this magic and this Blackness that should be celebrated. By saying, "Oh, but I don't see colour - I just see you as a person", it's like, "No, see my colour. See the fact that my skin is brown and it comes from the fact that I have a Black father." A Black man and a white woman got together and somehow this happened![Both laugh]LF: This chatterbox happened! But seeing colour is so, so important - which is why I struggle a bit with the whole BAME terminology basically.CR: Yeah, thank you so much for explaining that. I was listening about the not seeing colour thing and it struck me. Of course, what you're saying is, "Don't worry, I don't see your Blackness".LF: Yeah.CR: So what you're initially saying is, "So the Blackness is a negative thing, but don't worry because I disregard it".LF: Exactly. Yeah it's like, "Oh it's a shame you happen to be Black. Don't worry, I know you're a good person really but... [whispers] you are Black!"[Both laugh]LF: It's that connotation of like, "Oh I don't know what to say..." It does come from that white fragility and that white guilt in a way of like, "But I don't want to bring up the past of you know, by being Black therefore we have to talk about the slave trade!" No, we can look at it and we can go, "Yeah, this is wonderful as well" and acknowledge, "Yes that did happen - let's move, let's be proactive about it. Let's all be anti-racist, let's do that instead!"[Both laugh]LF: "Let's do that!"CR: "Shall we do that?"LF: "Let's do that, that would be fun!"[Both laugh]CR: I found what you just said earlier about intention and impact, I just found suddenly really enlightening. And again, it sort of shows my white privilege as I've not had to think about it before. But I was wondering then with talking about that session at the National Theatre, so you could say the intention was a positive one but the impact was a negative one.LF: Absolutely, yeah. Their intentions were there.[Slight delay/pause]CR: Oh, I lost you!LF: Oh, I think I lost you as well! I was like, "And that's the end!"[Both laugh]CR: I actually, I think it was because I was interrupting you and then you were being very kind and letting me speak. But then I realised that I'd interrupted![Both laugh]LF: We're doing really well!CR: But I realised that the intention doesn't mean that... just because you intended good things, doesn't mean you're excused from the responsibility from the impact.LF: Absolutely, oh my God. You've hit the nail on the head, so true. I've just finished reading actually this book called Women Don't Owe You Pretty by Florence Given. You may have heard of her, she's an Instagrammer, an influencer really. But her book is absolutely amazing and there's a whole bit that talks about accountability which comes into the whole "Intention vs. Impact" thing of like, okay you could say, "But I meant well I didn't want to hurt their feelings." But the impact ended up doing the opposite of what you intended and it has hurt their feelings. Therefore, your accountability needs to come into play where you need to rectify what you did wrong.And I suppose it goes to that sort of saying of like... being nice doesn't mean you're being anti-racist, which is also a really bitter pill to swallow, a really bitter pill to swallow. And I'm saying that as someone who's mixed because I have privilege, I 100% have privilege because I am lighter-skinned. I'm going to have privileges compared to a dark-skinned woman, I'm going to have privileges compared to a dark-skinned man, 100%. And I suppose being anti-racist and acknowledging your own privilege doesn't mean that you're not a nice person, doesn't mean that your intentions weren't good, doesn't mean that you're not wonderful. 9 times out of 10, people are wonderful! [Laughs] But it's being able to be an adult and go, "Okay, I meant well. It didn't go down well, therefore, how do I fix this and take accountability for it." And unfortunately that was the problem with what happened at the National - they meant well, they thought they were doing the right thing by us and going, "This is going to be great for these actors". Unfortunately, it did the opposite! And you know... a little bit pissed off, unfortunately.CR: Yeah. And that feeling that you had was happened.LF: Yeah.CR: It can't be erased because it wasn't meant.LF: That feeling happened. Yeah, absolutely yeah. So I guess a lot of it comes down to taking accountability for it, for your intentions. Yeah.CR: I think, I mean you said it's a bitter pill to swallow, and even speaking from your own experience. But actually I think it could be seen - maybe if particularly white people took a moment to think about it - I thought that was quite empowering because it gives you... you could see it as empowering."Right, okay. So I meant well - but here are the tools for me to understand why that isn't necessarily enough. And now I'm going to sit with the impact I've made." And in a way, it felt like quite a positive thing - if one can acknowledge it and sit with it.LF: Absolutely.CR: And because we're all sort of a little bit, all humans are really... I'm quite interested in how much we are desperate for control.

LF: Oh God, yeah! [Laughs]CR: Right? We always have like rules about our lives: "If I do this, this and this - I'll get this". And that makes us feel comforted.LF: Yes.CR: And sometimes you can do all those things and still not get X. And I think then if I'm maybe speaking as a white woman, I'll go, "Well if I mean this, this and I'm nice, like you said. You know, then I'm not racist!" And you learn that, no - that's not how it works. And then you go, "Oh goodness - I feel out of control". But you just gave me a gift, because you said you can still have a level of responsibility and control. Where you can go, "Oh okay, I did get it wrong. But now I can have the control of making it right again." And that responsibility isn't necessarily a negative thing; it could be seen as a positive thing.LF: Such a growing process as well. We find it... I'm saying this and putting my hand up, I find it so hard to say when I'm wrong. And it's a practice I am really trying to commit to! [Laughs] And I think that's the other thing, the whole thing with being actively anti-racist: you're going to get shit wrong! All the time! You're just going to get stuff wrong.CR: Yeah.LF: Because unfortunately the system and the curriculum has failed you, has failed all of us. Because we are not being taught stuff that we should be. And we're having to arrive late to the table, go, "Soz guys, I'm late! I'm going to have to really read up on this stuff that actually has been kept away from me. And now it's my responsibility to look this up and rectify these things. Not that it's personal, but I owe it to myself to be a better person - to do that to be anti-racist." Because as I said, 9 times out of 10, people are good. So take it that step further and be absolutely brilliant and admit when you've done something wrong. And also forgive yourself when you do fuck up, because you're going to! [Laughs] My Mum is like, "I've fucked up so many times, I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!" She got really confused the other day because she was like, "I didn't at first understand why you were upset about George Floyd being murdered, because it's so far away". And I was like, "Okay. So thank you for admitting that first of all, that's the first step." And then she was like, "I realise now why, I know now why this has hurt and I've empathised with that because it does affect you. Not in the same way that in the same that it has affected George Floyd's family, obviously it's not on that intense, personal bereavement. But it's something as a society we should all be upset about." And I was like, "Yeah, that's it. And you are going to get it wrong, so don't beat yourself up about it." Just turn up basically, show up! [Laughs] And I'm including myself in that as well.[Both laugh]CR: And on a small level, when we have arguments with people - more like domestic levels of arguments - you resist, don't you? One resist saying that you were wrong. You resist like saying sorry and you resist admitting that you were at fault. It just happens. But that moment that you go, "Oh... no I did do that wrong! I assumed this of you or I made this judgement or I was actually being defensive." Once you've said that, it's like a weight lifted and it's actually really liberating!LF: Oh, it's so freeing! Yeah! It's so, so freeing when you suddenly go, "Actually can you step aside please, love. Thank you, take a seat." And it's just... one of the best feelings. Because it's hard at first, because you feel so uncomfortable and you feel so vulnerable. And it is not easy, it's so not easy at all - but once you have done it, the release is just.. oh it's great! [Laughs]CR: Yeah! It's so much better and then you're like, "Okay, cool - so I did it wrong". And weirdly, it's never as bad as you thought it was going to be, to admit you were wrong.LF: Yeah.CR: Because now you're free to make it better. Well that's in the smaller, domestic setting of course. But you mentioned then when you were talking about the fact that it is our responsibility now to do a lot of research and learning and I agree with you. But do you also think that there could be a change in our British education system? I mean learning about Black history or colonialism? I mean it's sort of a loaded question![Both laugh]CR: Because I think we should change it.LF: "Because the answer is yes!"CR: "Because the answer is yes, Lydia. Okay! I'm just telling you!"LF: "We should!"[Both laugh]CR: But no, tell me about your thoughts on it.LF: 100%, 100%. Like if you can, go and sign petitions. We need to be learning this in schools. And as I said, I moved from Birmingham to Surrey and in my old school, we used to celebrate Martin Luther King Day - because it was much more multi-cultural. And then this was an unheard of thing in my school in Surrey. And in history we learnt a lot about the Second World War, which is still very important, of course it is. But that was it, that was it - like we didn't really learn anything about how England literally went over and colonised everything. It was just erased, it was completely erased from our learning. It was not on the curriculum. And it's such a shame because we feel like we're arriving late - as I said, I keep using this party analogy, and coming up and taking a seat at the table. But we really are arriving late to it, myself included.My education about Black history really had started after I'd finished school, after I'd finished sixth form. I didn't know who... I didn't properly now who Malcolm X was. That sounds so naive, but really I didn't know the real true details of what that man did. I didn't know who Bell Hooks was as a feminist, a Black feminist. And I started following these people on Twitter and realising they'd written these books or these articles or had these podcasts and all these things that are accessible to you. It's just that they're these treasures that seem to be (well, have been) buried unfortunately and overlooked. Because it hasn't been within our interest straight away to look at it. Because we're not taught it from a young age, it doesn't seem to be something that... you know, it's overlooked basically. Which is why we're late! [Laughs]CR: And also like, you talked about we learn about the Second World War. But we also don't learn all about that, the First World War and the Second World War.LF: No!CR: Because I had no idea, I really had this image in my mind of the allied forces - they were just a white army. I'm so ashamed to admit how I didn't know how many soldiers came from the Caribbean, from India, from Africa and fought for their sort of colonial masters.LF: Basically, yeah!CR: Yeah, for want of a better expression. And then were... I read and you know, I'm telling you something you'll know... which is something you probably get a lot! [Laughs]LF: [Laughs] Go ahead!CR: But it was something like Indian soldier, the highest ranking Indian soldier was still a lower rank than the lowest white ranking soldier.LF: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, madness. Absolute madness.CR: So we don't learn about the racism then, but we also don't learn just about how we could celebrate all these people who did these things for us - despite of the fact that they'd been um... colonialised...LF: Yeah.CR: I'm being really clumsy with my words, I apologise.LF: I actually can't say that word and I know that I slipped up earlier, because I physically cannot say it![Both laugh]LF: So that's something for Lydia to try and learn.CR: Mate, I can't spell feminism. I can't spell it!LF: Mat! Where do the 'i''s go?[Both laugh]LF: And I'm always that person that's first like, "Grammar!" And then I'm the one that's like, "Oh typo! Lydia, Wow! [Laughs] So basically the system has failed us, school is rubbish! There we go.[Both laugh]CR: I think it's such a shame and I really hope that it does seem like one of the many exciting things that has come from the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020 has been this push for a change in our education and curriculum. I really hope that sticks, because I think it can only benefit all of us. And also, wouldn't it be easier for people to admit they were wrong if they knew more about it in the first place?LF: Absolutely, absolutely. And I suppose you are going to be faced with people who don't want to hear it and don't want to be pulled up on their own privilege, because they see it as a negative thing or a personal attack. And I suppose that goes with the whole statue thing that's going on, because people don't want that part of history erased. I can kind of understand that to an extent. But think about all the other history that you've been neglected, that's you've not had the opportunity to learn about. And it doesn't mean you can't be proud, I saw a meme the other day on Instagram, oh my God! It was like, "Oh, does it mean I can't be proud and British any more" and then the reply was, "You can be proud and British - you can still like pie and mash and be really proud of Britain.. Just don't, you know, be racist!" [Laughs]CR: Yeah.LF: But it's so true. It doesn't mean that you are losing the parts of you that you should be celebrating. It doesn't mean that, it just means the bigger picture as well.CR: Yeah.LF: You're not going to lose it, we're just asking to sit next to you. Again with the chairs and the tables, legit I'm sorry!CR: Hey man, we like a party!LF: We like a party, yeah!CR: I think also it's something that... terminology is really useful and I actually want to move to that in a way. The idea that white privilege, I think people get quite tense about it, a little bit sensitive. But actually it isn't saying that you have never suffered in your life or experienced poverty, but it is talking about the privilege you experience just for being white. It's not like... and to acknowledge that, that there was one thing that you didn't have to deal with or a few things that you didn't have to deal with, because you are white. We're not saying that you didn't have to deal with anything.And it's the same, like we can be proud of history - but also admit things that were bad.LF: Because we messed up! Yeah, it's so true. It's so, so true. That's the thing with... I can sit here and I don't know what it's like to not be able-bodied at this present time in my life.CR: Right.LF: Do you know what I mean? I don't have to worry about the fact that, "Oh, there are a load of stairs that I can't use". Or I'm not trans, I don't know what it feels like to be trans. But I should do everything in my power to try and understand and support as much as I possibly can, be an active ally of that. And I think that's the problem with privilege and as I said before, I have privileges myself. I can read (just about!) [Laughs] I can just about spell, I went to school - I went to bloody drama school for crying out loud! I am mixed, I am mixed. And it's not that people are telling you off for being privileged and again, just to reiterate what you said - it doesn't mean you haven't gone through shit at all, it doesn't mean that you haven't hurt or been let down by society, or any of those things. What we're saying is it's different when you have darker skin on top of that and have been racially oppressed for centuries.CR: Yeah.LF: There's a whole history there and we're not blaming you personally for that history. We're just saying, "Let's take ownership and let's sort it out".CR: But I think also, you know something I'm learning is that I have to admit where my work privilege... like you said, I don't know... talking about faults and I just don't want to excuse myself either. I have benefited from that system that oppresses other people.LF: Yeah.CR: And it might feel uncomfortable, but you can't move forward unless you acknowledge that. And that actually brings me on to the #BlackLivesMatter and the Black Lives Matter movement and then also there's a response to that often used, which is #AllLivesMatter. And if you're okay to talk about that, I would love to hear you explain why that is unhelpful.LF: So... ah, I've heard so many different analogies that I've personally found helpful with this. It's like when you turn up to a Birthday and you shout, "But I've got a Birthday too!"CR: Yeah!LF: Or people were talking about breast cancer and ways to fight it and then someone commenting going, "But there are loads of other cancers too". It's almost gas-lighting the suffering of this by saying "All Lives Matter" in a way. And basically all I can say is all lives matter when Black lives matter really. This isn't saying (again like what we said before), this isn't saying that you don't matter as a person. It doesn't mean that you haven't struggled. But right now, things are happening and things have happened throughout the... time of the world! [Laughs] where we need to say and speak up now and say that Black Lives Matter doesn't mean that we're taking away the fact that your life matter. But right now, too many things have happened within this time period in 2020 where there needs to be a revolution for Black Lives Matter. This is why there's a movement now yet again we're saying Black Lives Matter.CR: Yeah. Thank you. That was really great.[LF laughs]CR: When we spoke on the phone, I remember you... when I was asking if you'd let me interview you - you mentioned that you have had a lot of requests to speak to people or to take part in things to talk about your experience over the last few weeks. And you mentioned that it was actually quite overwhelming and draining. So firstly again, thank you so much for then taking the time and energy to come and talk to us. Because it must be, it must be overwhelming and draining to talk about such a serious and important issue, and you feel like you're representing yourself and all... like we talked about, you don't represent all Black people. But I think I would feel a pressure to get it right for everyone. So I think it's really important to practice self-care in these situations.And also, you mentioned how you're having to discern which requests felt authentic and useful and which felt exploitative.LF: Yeah.CR: So we talked about the questions and the things we were going to talk about today, but I haven't actually mentioned this one to you because it just came to me. So feel free to skip it if you're not ready to talk about it, but could you sort of explain that to me, because I think it would be really important for people to hear that.

LF: Again this kind of goes back to me saying like, it's okay to get things wrong. Not that I'm saying anyone's doing anything wrong really, but... a lot has gone round of saying you know, "Check in on your Black friends during this time because of how they feel". And I suppose there comes a point where people again want to do the right thing, they have good intentions, but I suppose as you said it needs to be authentic. It can't be for personal gain and it can't be for the exploitation of a trend. And I suppose we're a couple of weeks in after a lot of the protests have happened, I know we've got one coming up on Saturday and next week as well. These are going to keep going (I hope they do), because my fear I guess is that there may be a bit of bandwagoning and a bit... the term's fool's gold has gone around. I don't know if you've heard it? But people describe false ally-ship as fool's gold and sort of like jumping on the hashtag or rocking up to protests because it's a day out. And not being authentic in what it truly, truly means and how painful this time period has been. And as you've said, it is really important to check in with yourself, ask yourself whether you're doing the right thing. And how it feels as a Black in this time, it is very draining because it is never going to be easy to see you know Black death, it's never easy to see that. It triggers everything, it triggers so much in our ancestry and in our history to see that and go, "That's because they look like me. So somebody else could treat me in that way." So it's a specific type of trauma.Again I know I keep repeating it, but again it's intention vs. impact every time. Just think of where your intentions are and just empathise and think, "Would I like this? Would this be a good time?" And also consider your relationship with Black people at the moment, don't just jump in... and this is why I wanted to do this podcast with you, Charlie. Because obviously we've always chatted about things, we've always been very open and you've been so respectful and you've heard me, I guess. And you've been very vocal about your own privilege. And that is where you know we can open up this conversation, because it needs to be had. Yeah, it can be exhausting. Yeah we've had tearful conversations in my house and conversations with my Mum. And my housemate has been amazing and he's talking to... he's white and his family members are white and he's had fall outs with them and that hurts, that's really painful. But we need to carry on doing it unfortunately, it's going to be really depressing and really upsetting and you're going to wonder whether you're doing the right thing a lot of the time. But don't stop.CR: Don't stop.LF: Don't stop, keep going.CR: Yeah. Well thank you so much. Usually during the Mischief Makers podcast at the end, we also ask people for any... because we're in lockdown at the moment still...LF: Still, yes![Both laugh]LF: You wouldn't think it but...CR: Oh God! Do you have any... now it can be related to this self-education and journey or it doesn't have to be, no pressure. But any sort of reading or top TV recommendations for people (like I said) either to continue on their journey of anti-racism, or it could be just something, anything you want?LF: So I am obsessed with I May Destroy You on BBC iPlayer, which is written by [Michaela Coel]...CR: I was hoping you'd say that!LF: Oh my God! Have you been watching it?CR: No, I'm so excited to start it!LF: Charlie, Charlie! You're going to love it! Oh my God, it is so, so good. I am obsessed with her, she is just wonderful. It is just sheer Black excellence and she is just so observant, she hits the nail on the head of just so many themes that are so important in it. And it's just gorgeous to see these stunning, amazing, talented Black actors on screen being represented. And just take a look at that, it's brilliant.I said earlier as well...CR: Sorry, say her name again! Say her name again?LF: Oh, Michaela Coel - I May Destroy You. Yeah!CR: Great, thank you!LF: I would also recommend what I said before Florence Given book, which is her first ever book called Women Don't Owe You Pretty. It's absolutely brilliant and she is phenomenal, she covers all topics on being queer, on being LGBTQ+, on working on privlege and being accountable, and setting healthy boundaries. It's all empowering, juicy, wonderful, feminist stuff. It's just great.And again I will say - I know a lot of people want to read this book and I read it a good couple of years ago, and I know that it's sold out on Amazon, but it will come back. But please do if you can, if you get a chance to read Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People by Reni Eddo-Lodge, because it's just... wonderful piece of education for everybody. It's wonderful.CR: Yeah, I can attest to that. It's an incredible read, for many reasons as well. She's such a great writer as well, it's just wonderful.LF: Yes, she's brilliant, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.CR: And you know what, I think you can get it. If you look for independent bookshops or even Waterstones and others, so it doesn't have to be Amazon.LF: Yeah.CR: I think it's becoming more available, maybe. I would say we can all lend it to each other, that would be cool.LF: Absolutely, yeah.CR: Lydia, I am so grateful. We are so lucky and honoured to have had you on this podcast.LF: Aw, thank you.CR: This was an incredible interview. Thank you for taking the time and your precious energy and agreeing to be interviewed by me. I'm just so grateful, thank you.LF: Thank you for just making me feel really comfortable and letting me talk nonsense about tables! [Laughs] For the past hour![Both laugh]LF: So cheers for that! Thanks pal!CR: It certainly wasn't nonsense! Thank you all for listening to Mischief Makers. I have been Charlie Russell talking to Lydia Fraser. Lydia, do you have a Twitter account or anything you'd encourage people to follow of yours?LF: My own personal one? Getting all those followers! [Laughs] Terrible! Yeah, mine is @LydiaKFraser... that's it!CR: I really encourage people to follow you on Twitter, because apart from being funny and interesting and talented, you also took part in the "Stand By Me" video phenomenon which was beautiful And also you post loads of things which are really helpful, I read a lot of the things that you write and it's helping me on my journey.LF: Oh thanks. I am really annoying! [Laughs]CR: No, no! Not annoying at all. And you're just, you know, well funny and that!LF: Aw, thanks![Both laugh]CR: So listeners, do keep an eye out for our next episode. You can follow all the latest in Mischief world on Twitter, @MischiefComedy. Thank you for listening and keep making Mischief. Thanks Lydia.LF: Thank you! Bye!